Fair Tax Critique

Discussion
1

Dear Harland;

While under the Fiar Tax employers would be absolved of paying matching social security and medicare taxes it owuld not in and of itself free up asdditional capital. This is due to the fact each employer who sold googs or servcies would become a tax collector for the federal government on the taxes of the goods and services sold. Secondly the fair tax DOES NOT stop any state from increasing their state income taxes to sop up the windfall on either or both personal income or corporate income.

I don't follow your reasoning on exports pricing or imports pricing. Perhaps a little more elucidation would be helpful.

Finally the Fair Tax is a hoax from the get-go. It does nothing to aleviate the taxes we pay because it does nothing to aleviate government spending by cutting government spending. Unless and until you first cut governmment spending all,acrosss the board any tax scheme to simplify taxes is a bunch of bugaboo baloney.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

2

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

3

Dear Derek;

Just happened to come across your posting as Yahoo still keeps
blocking your emails - why the heck yahoo does this beats the heck
out of me.

Off the top of my head - no I can't think of any legislative measures
I could support absent the dissolution of Government or the State and
all its minions and munchkins and blood sucking leeches.

BTW: The inclusion of munchkins and leeches is not intended to
disparage munchkins or leeches - minions can and should be
disparaged.

However since this is not likely to happen I could support
legislation which would seriously and drastically cut all federal
state and local governments down to the nub. That type of legislation
I could support. However since that isn't as likely to happen either
I am back to the figurative repeal all government and be done with it.

Anarkos - in the original Greek language context - is the only way to
go.

The simple overwhelming fact is Government or the State is the enemy
of private property and private property ownership.

As such the Government or the State is my enemy. Nothing further need
be said as the fact speaks for itself.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Ron:

Are there any legislative measures short of dissolving government

entirely

that you would support? I ask this in all seriousness.

-Derek

>
> Dear Harland;
>
> While under the Fiar Tax employers would be absolved of paying

matching

> social security and medicare taxes it owuld not in and of itself

free up

> asdditional capital. This is due to the fact each employer who

sold googs or

> servcies would become a tax collector for the federal government

on the

> taxes of the goods and services sold. Secondly the fair tax DOES

NOT stop

> any state from increasing their state income taxes to sop up the

windfall on

> either or both personal income or corporate income.
>
> I don't follow your reasoning on exports pricing or imports

pricing.

> Perhaps a little more elucidation would be helpful.
>
> Finally the Fair Tax is a hoax from the get-go. It does nothing to
> aleviate the taxes we pay because it does nothing to aleviate

government

> spending by cutting government spending. Unless and until you

first cut

> governmment spending all,acrosss the board any tax scheme to

simplify taxes

> is a bunch of bugaboo baloney.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> From: Harland Harrison <harlandh5@...>
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:08:58 PM
> Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Fair Tax Critique
>
> The article is an interesting critique of the Fair Tax
> as proposed. Some of the claims for the Fair Tax are
> clearly unsupported.
>
> However, neither Laurence Vance, nor anybody else
> seemed to be aware that employers pay substantial
> taxes on payrolls which do NOT come out of the
> workers' gross pay. All employers must match the
> Social Security and Medicare deductions. Some
> districts impose additional taxes. These mostly
> invisible taxes would suddenly show up in the overall
> tax rate under the Fair Tax plan.
>
> Also does anybody know if Boortz or Jorgenson ever
> considered the effect of the Fair Tax on foreign
> trade? Suddenly, US exports would go down in price
> because imposing a compensating tariff on exports is
> forbidden by the Constitution. Simultaneously,
> imported goods would seem to have the same sales tax
> imposed on them as domestic goods. Does anybody know
> if the Fair Tax is intended that way, or is it
> actually a VAT with regard to imports?
>
> Harland Harrison
> LP of San Mateo County CA
>
> --- Ron Getty <tradergroupe@...> writes:
> > Dear Dr. Mike and Everyone Else;
> >
> > This article from Mises Institute is a step by step
> > refutation of the so-called Fair Tax and is more
> > in-depth. Read it and if anyone brings up the
> > so-called Fair Tax do a dump on them for their gross
> > rank stupidity and cupidity. The only true " Fair
> > Tax " is no taxes at all forcibly taken from anyone
> > by any government entity under any circumstances at
> > any time for any reason.
> >
> > REPEAL ALL TAXES!!!
> >
> > http://www.mises.org/story/2327
> >
> > Ron Getty
> > SF Libertarian
> >
> >
> > From: "dredelstein@..."
> > <dredelstein@...>
> > To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 6:40:01 AM
> > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Fair Tax Critique
> >
> >
> > "Exactly What Is So Appealing About the Fair Tax?"
> > by Jim Cox
> >
> http://www.gpc.edu/~jcox/Articles/2006/LPNewsFairTax%

20article.jpg<http://www.gpc.edu/~jcox/Articles/2006/LPNewsFairTax%
20article.jpg>

> > or
> > http://tinyurl.com/yl5rzs
> >
> >
> > I never knew about point #1 before. However it would
> > be most troubling to most supporters of small govt.
> >
> > Best, Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure

protection

4

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

5

Dear Ron;

OK. Let me explain. The Fair Tax would be a 30% sales tax, a tax on goods
sold. US consumers would have to pay it, just as we pay 8+% on goods sold
in California. But when someone in New Hampshire orders a purchase shipped
from California, they don¹t have to pay the sales tax. Since the
Constitution forbids any tax on exports, someone in France ordering goods
from the US would apparently not have to pay the Fair Tax, either. That
means US customers would pay 30% more for US goods than foreign customers.

Also, consider the cost of imported goods. The price at the dock includes
all government services in the manufacturing country. But the price in the
store would be 30% higher. The government would collect 30% on imported
goods, but would provide nothing to the people who made them.

As for the matching ³employers¹ share² of Social Security and Medicare
taxes, abolishing them in this scheme, may have no effect on the overall tax
rate. However, the citizens would became aware of that portion of the tax
revenue. Right now, most people do not even know it exists; it does not
show up on their check stubs. Change that tax to a share of a national
sales tax, and everybody would see it at the bottom of every receipt they
get in the mall.

Harland Harrison
LP of San Mateo County CA

6

Dear Derek;

The point is actually as you pointed out -

[ is that half measures successfully passed will be a net gain for
liberty, and thus interest me }

Without Government and its existing legislation we would not need
Government to pass succesful legislation to give us a net gain in
LIBERTY - we would already have LIBERTY!!!

Government does not create or have LIBERTY to give or cede - you
either have LIBERTY or you don't. When you enact a Government you
have already started down the slippery of losing LIBERTY - by
bequeathing to the Government your rights to do as you need to do so
long as those needs do not infringe on another and their rights to do
as they need to do and so on and so on you have given up your
LIBERTY - it is lost and gone forever - then to hang around waiting
for Government to give your LIBERTY back??? WRONG!!!!

A flat tax is a non-sequitor as Congress would not let it lay as a
flat tax and it would get increased to meet the costs of Government
spending - therefore a flat tax is useless as proposed in the Fair
Tax.

Secondly it does nothing to cut Government spending and does nothing
to stop state governments from increasing their sales taxes and
personal income taxes.

Ron Getty
SF Libertarian

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
wrote:

Ron:

My point is that half measures successfully passed will be a net

gain for

liberty, and thus interest me. You made a great point about

spending being

the source of the problem. However, a flat tax would also take away

the

powers of congress to play favorites with the tax code.

>
> Dear Derek;
>
> Just happened to come across your posting as Yahoo still keeps
> blocking your emails - why the heck yahoo does this beats the heck
> out of me.
>
> Off the top of my head - no I can't think of any legislative

measures

> I could support absent the dissolution of Government or the State

and

> all its minions and munchkins and blood sucking leeches.
>
> BTW: The inclusion of munchkins and leeches is not intended to
> disparage munchkins or leeches - minions can and should be
> disparaged.
>
> However since this is not likely to happen I could support
> legislation which would seriously and drastically cut all federal
> state and local governments down to the nub. That type of

legislation

> I could support. However since that isn't as likely to happen

either

> I am back to the figurative repeal all government and be done

with it.

>
> Anarkos - in the original Greek language context - is the only

way to

> go.
>
> The simple overwhelming fact is Government or the State is the

enemy

> of private property and private property ownership.
>
> As such the Government or the State is my enemy. Nothing further

need

> be said as the fact speaks for itself.
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
>
> --- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com <lpsf-discuss%

40yahoogroups.com>,

> "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ron:
> >
> > Are there any legislative measures short of dissolving

government

> entirely
> > that you would support? I ask this in all seriousness.
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Harland;
> > >
> > > While under the Fiar Tax employers would be absolved of paying
> matching
> > > social security and medicare taxes it owuld not in and of

itself

> free up
> > > asdditional capital. This is due to the fact each employer who
> sold googs or
> > > servcies would become a tax collector for the federal

government

> on the
> > > taxes of the goods and services sold. Secondly the fair tax

DOES

> NOT stop
> > > any state from increasing their state income taxes to sop up

the

> windfall on
> > > either or both personal income or corporate income.
> > >
> > > I don't follow your reasoning on exports pricing or imports
> pricing.
> > > Perhaps a little more elucidation would be helpful.
> > >
> > > Finally the Fair Tax is a hoax from the get-go. It does

nothing to

> > > aleviate the taxes we pay because it does nothing to aleviate
> government
> > > spending by cutting government spending. Unless and until you
> first cut
> > > governmment spending all,acrosss the board any tax scheme to
> simplify taxes
> > > is a bunch of bugaboo baloney.
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > From: Harland Harrison <harlandh5@>
> > > To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com <lpsf-discuss%

40yahoogroups.com>

> > > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:08:58 PM
> > > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Fair Tax Critique
> > >
> > > The article is an interesting critique of the Fair Tax
> > > as proposed. Some of the claims for the Fair Tax are
> > > clearly unsupported.
> > >
> > > However, neither Laurence Vance, nor anybody else
> > > seemed to be aware that employers pay substantial
> > > taxes on payrolls which do NOT come out of the
> > > workers' gross pay. All employers must match the
> > > Social Security and Medicare deductions. Some
> > > districts impose additional taxes. These mostly
> > > invisible taxes would suddenly show up in the overall
> > > tax rate under the Fair Tax plan.
> > >
> > > Also does anybody know if Boortz or Jorgenson ever
> > > considered the effect of the Fair Tax on foreign
> > > trade? Suddenly, US exports would go down in price
> > > because imposing a compensating tariff on exports is
> > > forbidden by the Constitution. Simultaneously,
> > > imported goods would seem to have the same sales tax
> > > imposed on them as domestic goods. Does anybody know
> > > if the Fair Tax is intended that way, or is it
> > > actually a VAT with regard to imports?
> > >
> > > Harland Harrison
> > > LP of San Mateo County CA
> > >
> > > --- Ron Getty <tradergroupe@> writes:
> > > > Dear Dr. Mike and Everyone Else;
> > > >
> > > > This article from Mises Institute is a step by step
> > > > refutation of the so-called Fair Tax and is more
> > > > in-depth. Read it and if anyone brings up the
> > > > so-called Fair Tax do a dump on them for their gross
> > > > rank stupidity and cupidity. The only true " Fair
> > > > Tax " is no taxes at all forcibly taken from anyone
> > > > by any government entity under any circumstances at
> > > > any time for any reason.
> > > >
> > > > REPEAL ALL TAXES!!!
> > > >
> > > > http://www.mises.org/story/2327
> > > >
> > > > Ron Getty
> > > > SF Libertarian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: "dredelstein@"
> > > > <dredelstein@>
> > > > To: lpsf-discuss@...m <lpsf-discuss%

40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 6:40:01 AM
> > > > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Fair Tax Critique
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Exactly What Is So Appealing About the Fair Tax?"
> > > > by Jim Cox
> > > >
> > > http://www.gpc.edu/~jcox/Articles/2006/LPNewsFairTax%

<http://www.gpc.edu/~jcox/Articles/2006/LPNewsFairTax%25&gt;

> 20article.jpg<http://www.gpc.edu/%

7Ejcox/Articles/2006/LPNewsFairTax%<http://www.gpc.edu/%
7Ejcox/Articles/2006/LPNewsFairTax%25>