Civil Liberties Initiative (Police Accountability Ideas)

Here are a few ideas for measures to increase police accountability:

(1) Prohibit police department employees from writing "crime blotter" type columns for the media, a common practice which discourages newspapers from doing their own reporting and allows the police to exercise inappropriate control over which items appear in print and how they are reported; further require that the SFPD provide police reports and any other documents on request to members of the press, unless doing so would jeopardize an investigation or otherwise interfere with police work, in which case the department must provide the Office of Citizen Complaints within one week a detailed explanation (no less than 250 words) of why the document or information requested could not be provided to the member of the press who requested it

(2) Require that police officer uniforms display on their backs in a big bold font and sharply contrasting color the name and badge number of the officer; further require that police officer hats and helmets display on their front in a big bold font and sharply contrasting color the officer's badge number; further require that the name of the officer be displayed above his or her breast jacket pocket in a big bold font and sharply contrasting color

(3) Give the Office of Citizen Complaints full and unfettered access to police reports and all other SFPD documents, and the power to compel testimony from and discipline police officers and police department employees up to and including terminating their employment and reducing or canceling their pensions and other benefits arising from employment

(4) Require that a signed search warrant be given to the subject of any search requiring a warrant, and that the person whose possessions are to be searched must be allowed at least thirty seconds without interruption to read the warrant before the commencement of the search; further require that if the subject of the search is arrested, the warrant must be given to a person or organization of the subject's choice within 24 hours of the arrest

(5) Require that any person cited for an infraction be given, in writing at the time of the citation, the section of the police code or other statute under which he or she is being cited; further require police officers to immediately tell anyone they stop to question that he or she is not required to answer the questions, and may leave at any time without penalty unless told they are under arrest; further require that a complete copy of any audio or video recording made by police during an arrest be given to the person or organization of the arrestee's choice within 24 hours of the arrest

(6) Prohibit police officers from speaking before the Board of Supervisors or other city bodies or committees or appearing at meetings of those bodies unless they (a) do so on their own time, in which case they may not appear in uniform, or (b) are requested to appear by a member of the committee or body they are appearing before, in which case they must appear in uniform and state at the beginning of any public comment or testimony they give, the approximate hourly cost to the city of their appearance based on their salary, and the name of the board or committee member who requested them to be present

Yours in liberty,
        <<< Starchild >>>

Ah yes, I forgot. I could go for the idea of police accountability,
but what behavior exactly are we going after?

Marcy

--- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@y...>
wrote:
>
>
> Dear Marcy;
>
> On car searches or searches in general with or without out
warrants it's directed by state laws as modified by the US Supremes.
It's not a real local issue as to deciding how a search is conducted
it's based on state guidelines.
>
> The whole search situation is a snakepit morass worse than
Pandora's box because of all the various challenges going on because
of searches like the police did of the drivers car. There they had
a "right" because the driver caused the accident and they could look
for evidence of drinking drugs etc. The issue is so convoluted as to
what happens and what the circumstances were what the probable causes
were and were drug sniffing dogs used and yada yada yada.
>
> On the project housing issue it could be to have the inquiries
made into the Feds turning the government "public" housing over to
the projects residents to buy the property. The initiative would not
have to direct it to happen by direct actions to be taken to have it
happen.
>
> The basis would be by owning the residents would have a greater
stake in what happened to them and their property and their local
community. The emphasis would be on ownership and property rights and
family cohesiveness and providing some centralizing point of
stability in the local community.
>
> Or another local issue would be something to require actual
accountability within the SFPD. This is based as to why the officers
in question who did the video taping and used police property to do
so felt they could do this in the first place.
>
> This is from todays Chronicle on the history of the SFPD and its
scandals and gives two viewpoints about the problem.
>
> As far as Sgt. Delagnes( president of the POA) is concerned,
the uproar over the video has gotten completely out of
hand. "Compared to other departments across the country, I
believe the San Francisco Police Department has fewer problems and
less serious problems," Delagnes said. "When mayors and other
officials say there is a culture in the San Francisco department that
needs to be changed, I don't have a clue what they are talking
about.'' Another observer watching the department's latest
turmoil has been former San Francisco Police Chief Gain, who left in
1980. Gain, noting he struggled with a department badly needing
reform, said: "In a professional department where there is an
understanding there will be appropriate conduct adhering to rules and
regulations, conduct of this nature -- producing a video ridiculing
people because of their race or because they were gay or homeless --
simply would not occur. If officers felt they could get by with this,
what is
> wrong with the top management that word has not gotten down to the
street?''
>
> Delagnes is the same policer who took his full-time Sgts pay and
the pay as the full-time president of the POA. The Police Commission
is apparently going to have to tell him to return the sgts.pay no
voluntary return the pay on his part.
>
>
> Ron Getty
> SF Libertarian
>
> Marcy Berry <amarcyb@h...> wrote:
> Dear Ron,
>
> Ok, I understand. My daughter (the one who volunteers at the
Tenderloin Tutorial Program) said the same thing as you -- giving
does not help.
>
> Regarding your proposal to privatize the projects -- sounds
great, but I do not know enough about the housing programs to
comment. I am wondering if you might not want to consider something
easier.
>
> By "easier" I mean a local law that can be whacked at. One
idea: Fourth Amendment violations. Example: a couple of years ago,
a young man tried to beat a light and I ran into his car; when the
police came, they searched his car, but not mine. Why did they
search his car? Yes, he clearly committed a traffic violation, but
what does that have to do with the contents of his car? What does
*local* law say about searches?
>
> Marcy
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> U s government grant California Activist U s
government student loan California politics
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "lpsf-activists" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> lpsf-activists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>

SPONSORED LINKS

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YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

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lpsf-activists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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<image.tiff>

I believe there are some good ideas here; except, in my opinion
requiring names on the uniforms (to me it implies that we think all
police officers are prone to questionable behavior, which is not the
case).

I would need to understand more about the police blotters and the
Board of Supervisors appearance (to me those proposals sound like
curbing speech). Maybe we could review some blotters and see if they
are inflamatory or biased for example?

I sure hope our police officers are already required to have and show
warrants, but if that is not the case, yes, let us go after that! We
would need to determine the warrant procedures being followed?

Requiring police to cite applicable code at the time of an arrest
might not be feasible (who has the entire police code memorized?),
but the requirement might be worded so as to curb arrests that are
not really essential.

I seem to recall some past item on the S.F. ballot regarding the
Office of Citizens Complaint having power over the police, but I do
not recall the outcome. Is this proposal a redoux?

Marcy

--- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@e...>
wrote:
>
> Here are a few ideas for measures to increase police
accountability:
>
> (1) Prohibit police department employees from writing "crime
blotter"
> type columns for the media, a common practice which discourages
> newspapers from doing their own reporting and allows the police to
> exercise inappropriate control over which items appear in print and
how
> they are reported; further require that the SFPD provide police
reports
> and any other documents on request to members of the press, unless
> doing so would jeopardize an investigation or otherwise interfere
with
> police work, in which case the department must provide the Office
of
> Citizen Complaints within one week a detailed explanation (no less
than
> 250 words) of why the document or information requested could not
be
> provided to the member of the press who requested it

> (2) Require that police officer uniforms display on their backs in
a
> big bold font and sharply contrasting color the name and badge
number
> of the officer; further require that police officer hats and
helmets
> display on their front in a big bold font and sharply contrasting
color
> the officer's badge number; further require that the name of the
> officer be displayed above his or her breast jacket pocket in a big
> bold font and sharply contrasting color
>
> (3) Give the Office of Citizen Complaints full and unfettered
access to
> police reports and all other SFPD documents, and the power to
compel
> testimony from and discipline police officers and police department
> employees up to and including terminating their employment and
reducing
> or canceling their pensions and other benefits arising from
employment
>
> (4) Require that a signed search warrant be given to the subject of
any
> search requiring a warrant, and that the person whose possessions
are
> to be searched must be allowed at least thirty seconds without
> interruption to read the warrant before the commencement of the
search;
> further require that if the subject of the search is arrested, the
> warrant must be given to a person or organization of the subject's
> choice within 24 hours of the arrest
>
> (5) Require that any person cited for an infraction be given, in
> writing at the time of the citation, the section of the police code
or
> other statute under which he or she is being cited; further require
> police officers to immediately tell anyone they stop to question
that
> he or she is not required to answer the questions, and may leave at
any
> time without penalty unless told they are under arrest; further
require
> that a complete copy of any audio or video recording made by police
> during an arrest be given to the person or organization of the
> arrestee's choice within 24 hours of the arrest
>
> (6) Prohibit police officers from speaking before the Board of
> Supervisors or other city bodies or committees or appearing at
meetings
> of those bodies unless they (a) do so on their own time, in which
case
> they may not appear in uniform, or (b) are requested to appear by a
> member of the committee or body they are appearing before, in which
> case they must appear in uniform and state at the beginning of any
> public comment or testimony they give, the approximate hourly cost
to
> the city of their appearance based on their salary, and the name of
the
> board or committee member who requested them to be present
>
> Yours in liberty,
> <<< Starchild >>>
>
>
> On Monday, December 12, 2005, at 12:41 AM, Amarcy D. Berry wrote:
>
> > Ah yes, I forgot. I could go for the idea of police
accountability,
> > but what behavior exactly are we going after?
> >
> > Marcy
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty
<tradergroupe@y...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Marcy;
> > >
> > > On car searches or searches in general with or without out
> > warrants it's directed by state laws as modified by the US
Supremes.
> > It's not a real local issue as to deciding how a search is
conducted
> > it's based on state guidelines.
> > >
> > > The whole search situation is a snakepit morass worse than
> > Pandora's box because of all the various challenges going on
because
> > of searches like the police did of the drivers car. There they had
> > a "right" because the driver caused the accident and they could
look
> > for evidence of drinking drugs etc. The issue is so convoluted as
to
> > what happens and what the circumstances were what the probable
causes
> > were and were drug sniffing dogs used and yada yada yada.
> > >
> > > On the project housing issue it could be to have the inquiries
> > made into the Feds turning the government "public" housing over to
> > the projects residents to buy the property. The initiative would
not
> > have to direct it to happen by direct actions to be taken to have
it
> > happen.
> > >
> > > The basis would be by owning the residents would have a
greater
> > stake in what happened to them and their property and their local
> > community. The emphasis would be on ownership and property rights
and
> > family cohesiveness and providing some centralizing point of
> > stability in the local community.
> > >
> > > Or another local issue would be something to require actual
> > accountability within the SFPD. This is based as to why the
officers
> > in question who did the video taping and used police property to
do
> > so felt they could do this in the first place.
> > >
> > > This is from todays Chronicle on the history of the SFPD and
its
> > scandals and gives two viewpoints about the problem.
> > >
> > > As far as Sgt. Delagnes( president of the POA) is concerned,
> > the uproar over the video has gotten completely out of
> > hand. "Compared to other departments across the country, I
> > believe the San Francisco Police Department has fewer problems and
> > less serious problems," Delagnes said. "When mayors and other
> > officials say there is a culture in the San Francisco department
that
> > needs to be changed, I don't have a clue what they are talking
> > about.'' Another observer watching the department's latest
> > turmoil has been former San Francisco Police Chief Gain, who left
in
> > 1980. Gain, noting he struggled with a department badly
needing
> > reform, said: "In a professional department where there is an
> > understanding there will be appropriate conduct adhering to rules
and
> > regulations, conduct of this nature -- producing a video
ridiculing
> > people because of their race or because they were gay or
homeless --
> > simply would not occur. If officers felt they could get by with
this,
> > what is
> > > wrong with the top management that word has not gotten down to
the
> > street?''
> > >
> > > Delagnes is the same policer who took his full-time Sgts pay
and
> > the pay as the full-time president of the POA. The Police
Commission
> > is apparently going to have to tell him to return the sgts.pay no
> > voluntary return the pay on his part.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > Marcy Berry <amarcyb@h...> wrote:
> > > Dear Ron,
> > >
> > > Ok, I understand. My daughter (the one who volunteers at the
> > Tenderloin Tutorial Program) said the same thing as you -- giving
> > does not help.
> > >
> > > Regarding your proposal to privatize the projects -- sounds
> > great, but I do not know enough about the housing programs to
> > comment. I am wondering if you might not want to consider
something
> > easier.
> > >
> > > By "easier" I mean a local law that can be whacked at. One
> > idea: Fourth Amendment violations. Example: a couple of years
ago,
> > a young man tried to beat a light and I ran into his car; when the
> > police came, they searched his car, but not mine. Why did they
> > search his car? Yes, he clearly committed a traffic violation, but
> > what does that have to do with the contents of his car? What does
> > *local* law say about searches?
> > >
> > > Marcy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant California Activist U s
> > government student loan California politics
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >
> > > Visit your group "lpsf-activists" on the web.
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > lpsf-activists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> <image.tiff>
> >
> >
> <image.tiff>
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > + Visit your group "lpsf-activists" on the web.
> >
> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > lpsf-activists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> >
> >
> <image.tiff>
> >
>

I believe there are some good ideas here; except, in my opinion
requiring names on the uniforms (to me it implies that we think all
police officers are prone to questionable behavior, which is not the
case).

  The fact that power corrupts would seem to make police officers as a class prone to questionable behavior, though of course not every officer will go that route. But they already do have their names on their uniforms, I was just proposing to make the names easier to read.

I would need to understand more about the police blotters and the
Board of Supervisors appearance (to me those proposals sound like
curbing speech). Maybe we could review some blotters and see if they
are inflamatory or biased for example?

  These proposals *would* curb speech, to some degree. Justifiably, in my view. Federal employees, for example, are already prohibited from lobbying. It's a conflict of interest. Also, because government employees are insiders, they have far more knowledge of the system than most ordinary citizens, which puts them at an advantage over everyone else.

       I do think the crime blotter columns are biased. Wouldn't you expect a police officer whose name is on a public column which his/her colleagues who were involved in the incidents being reported can read, to write with a certain sympathy toward them? I wouldn't call the columns inflammatory, although some of the entries can have a very snide tone toward suspected criminals, including people who've done nothing that libertarians would consider a crime. But I suspect the bias is mostly reflected in what is *omitted* from the columns. If there is an unjustified police shooting, for example, I doubt that would show up. I don't recall ever reading about a major law enforcement screw-up or mistake in one of these columns. More fundamentally, I just want to see independent journalists reporting on police activity, not cops writing the material themselves. Don't you see what a dangerous trend it is to have police officers responsible for reporting the crime news?

  If you're concerned about speech restrictions on government employees, there is certainly room for improvement there. A good initiative might be a measure that would prohibit discouraging any government employees working under you from talking to the press. One of the issues that came up in my school board race last year was what amounts to a gag order that Superintendent Arlene Ackerman has issued to school district employees, so that she can handle all contacts with the press through her public relations office. (See <http://www.sfbg.com/39/39/cover_ackerman_spin.html>). An even stronger measure would be to prohibit government agencies from employing public relations departments or PR personnel at all -- it's repulsive for them to be using the taxpayers' money to tell taxpayers what a good job they are doing. I say just do your jobs, and let the media and the public be the judge of whether you're doing them well or not.

I sure hope our police officers are already required to have and show
warrants, but if that is not the case, yes, let us go after that! We
would need to determine the warrant procedures being followed?

  I'm admittedly not sure what local search practices are. But I hear stories in the media about people who were raided and never shown a warrant, let alone given a copy for their records and possible legal defense.

Requiring police to cite applicable code at the time of an arrest
might not be feasible (who has the entire police code memorized?),
but the requirement might be worded so as to curb arrests that are
not really essential.

  What I had in mind was that officers would carry supplies of little cards with the code sections for which people are commonly cited printed on them.

I seem to recall some past item on the S.F. ballot regarding the
Office of Citizens Complaint having power over the police, but I do
not recall the outcome. Is this proposal a redoux?

  Not at all. The OCC does have *some* authority, but it is generally rather toothless. You can read their procedure for hearing citizen complaints here: <http://www.sfgov.org/site/occ_page.asp?id=1444>. Basically they just have to kick the matter upstairs to the Police Commission, which has a broader mission and is not dedicated strictly to hearing allegations about problems with the police as is the OCC.

Yours in liberty,
        <<< Starchild >>>

Marcy

--- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@e...>
wrote:
>
> Here are a few ideas for measures to increase police
accountability:
>
> (1) Prohibit police department employees from writing "crime
blotter"
> type columns for the media, a common practice which discourages
> newspapers from doing their own reporting and allows the police to
> exercise inappropriate control over which items appear in print and
how
> they are reported; further require that the SFPD provide police
reports
> and any other documents on request to members of the press, unless
> doing so would jeopardize an investigation or otherwise interfere
with
> police work, in which case the department must provide the Office
of
> Citizen Complaints within one week a detailed explanation (no less
than
> 250 words) of why the document or information requested could not
be
> provided to the member of the press who requested it

> (2) Require that police officer uniforms display on their backs in
a
> big bold font and sharply contrasting color the name and badge
number
> of the officer; further require that police officer hats and
helmets
> display on their front in a big bold font and sharply contrasting
color
> the officer's badge number; further require that the name of the
> officer be displayed above his or her breast jacket pocket in a big
> bold font and sharply contrasting color
>
> (3) Give the Office of Citizen Complaints full and unfettered
access to
> police reports and all other SFPD documents, and the power to
compel
> testimony from and discipline police officers and police department
> employees up to and including terminating their employment and
reducing
> or canceling their pensions and other benefits arising from
employment
>
> (4) Require that a signed search warrant be given to the subject of
any
> search requiring a warrant, and that the person whose possessions
are
> to be searched must be allowed at least thirty seconds without
> interruption to read the warrant before the commencement of the
search;
> further require that if the subject of the search is arrested, the
> warrant must be given to a person or organization of the subject's
> choice within 24 hours of the arrest
>
> (5) Require that any person cited for an infraction be given, in
> writing at the time of the citation, the section of the police code
or
> other statute under which he or she is being cited; further require
> police officers to immediately tell anyone they stop to question
that
> he or she is not required to answer the questions, and may leave at
any
> time without penalty unless told they are under arrest; further
require
> that a complete copy of any audio or video recording made by police
> during an arrest be given to the person or organization of the
> arrestee's choice within 24 hours of the arrest
>
> (6) Prohibit police officers from speaking before the Board of
> Supervisors or other city bodies or committees or appearing at
meetings
> of those bodies unless they (a) do so on their own time, in which
case
> they may not appear in uniform, or (b) are requested to appear by a
> member of the committee or body they are appearing before, in which
> case they must appear in uniform and state at the beginning of any
> public comment or testimony they give, the approximate hourly cost
to
> the city of their appearance based on their salary, and the name of
the
> board or committee member who requested them to be present
>
> Yours in liberty,
> <<< Starchild >>>
>
> > Ah yes, I forgot. I could go for the idea of police
accountability,
> > but what behavior exactly are we going after?
> >
> > Marcy
> >
> > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Ron Getty
<tradergroupe@y...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Marcy;
> > >
> > > On car searches or searches in general with or without out
> > warrants it's directed by state laws as modified by the US
Supremes.
> > It's not a real local issue as to deciding how a search is
conducted
> > it's based on state guidelines.
> > >
> > > The whole search situation is a snakepit morass worse than
> > Pandora's box because of all the various challenges going on
because
> > of searches like the police did of the drivers car. There they had
> > a "right" because the driver caused the accident and they could
look
> > for evidence of drinking drugs etc. The issue is so convoluted as
to
> > what happens and what the circumstances were what the probable
causes
> > were and were drug sniffing dogs used and yada yada yada.
> > >
> > > On the project housing issue it could be to have the inquiries
> > made into the Feds turning the government "public" housing over to
> > the projects residents to buy the property. The initiative would
not
> > have to direct it to happen by direct actions to be taken to have
it
> > happen.
> > >
> > > The basis would be by owning the residents would have a
greater
> > stake in what happened to them and their property and their local
> > community. The emphasis would be on ownership and property rights
and
> > family cohesiveness and providing some centralizing point of
> > stability in the local community.
> > >
> > > Or another local issue would be something to require actual
> > accountability within the SFPD. This is based as to why the
officers
> > in question who did the video taping and used police property to
do
> > so felt they could do this in the first place.
> > >
> > > This is from todays Chronicle on the history of the SFPD and
its
> > scandals and gives two viewpoints about the problem.
> > >
> > > As far as Sgt. Delagnes( president of the POA) is concerned,
> > the uproar over the video has gotten completely out of
> > hand. "Compared to other departments across the country, I
> > believe the San Francisco Police Department has fewer problems and
> > less serious problems," Delagnes said. "When mayors and other
> > officials say there is a culture in the San Francisco department
that
> > needs to be changed, I don't have a clue what they are talking
> > about.'' Another observer watching the department's latest
> > turmoil has been former San Francisco Police Chief Gain, who left
in
> > 1980. Gain, noting he struggled with a department badly
needing
> > reform, said: "In a professional department where there is an
> > understanding there will be appropriate conduct adhering to rules
and
> > regulations, conduct of this nature -- producing a video
ridiculing
> > people because of their race or because they were gay or
homeless --
> > simply would not occur. If officers felt they could get by with
this,
> > what is
> > > wrong with the top management that word has not gotten down to
the
> > street?''
> > >
> > > Delagnes is the same policer who took his full-time Sgts pay
and
> > the pay as the full-time president of the POA. The Police
Commission
> > is apparently going to have to tell him to return the sgts.pay no
> > voluntary return the pay on his part.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ron Getty
> > > SF Libertarian
> > >
> > > Marcy Berry <amarcyb@h...> wrote:
> > > Dear Ron,
> > >
> > > Ok, I understand. My daughter (the one who volunteers at the
> > Tenderloin Tutorial Program) said the same thing as you -- giving
> > does not help.
> > >
> > > Regarding your proposal to privatize the projects -- sounds
> > great, but I do not know enough about the housing programs to
> > comment. I am wondering if you might not want to consider
something
> > easier.
> > >
> > > By "easier" I mean a local law that can be whacked at. One
> > idea: Fourth Amendment violations. Example: a couple of years
ago,
> > a young man tried to beat a light and I ran into his car; when the
> > police came, they searched his car, but not mine. Why did they
> > search his car? Yes, he clearly committed a traffic violation, but
> > what does that have to do with the contents of his car? What does
> > *local* law say about searches?
> > >
> > > Marcy
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > U s government grant California Activist U s
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Requiring names on uniforms implies officers are individually responsible for their actions. This is an important message to convey.

Best, Michael

I can't say I disagree with anything about this proposal, but I'd
rather see something perceived more as pro-freedom than anti-cop.

Personally, I think the cops have about the worst job in the city.
It's high stress, dangerous work for medium pay. And when you do
something silly on your own time to blow off steam, the Mayor and
Chief can't wait to jump on you. That is why they are woefully short
of recruits, in spite of the newish policy of accepting applications
from outside the city.

Someone brought up de-funding the vice unit at one of our meetings. I
like that idea more, even though it would be largely symbolic.

While typing this, I had another idea that might be better. How about
mandating police priorities? So long as there are any open cases of
violent crime or theft, no resources shall be assigned to any other
investigations? Let them languish in an open state until the statute
of limitations runs out. That would actually turn the manpower
shortage into a positive.
-Morey