Articles IX and X of the Bill of Rights forbid the fedgov to legislate regarding education,
with the exception of the military academies.
Bob Barr for president. Vote Libertarian.
For Life and Liberty,
David Macko
Hello David, didn't realize you were on this list. Thanks for joining us!
((( starchild )))
Dear David,
Nice to hear from you. I was referring to a specific clause regarding
education, which I believe, does not appear in the Constitution.
Articles IX and X refer more to Starchild's earlier arguments that
theoretically what is not specifically enumerated is reserved "to the
States respectively, or to the people."
Regards,
Marcy
Articles IX and X of the Bill of Rights forbid the fedgov to
legislate regarding education,
with the exception of the military academies.
Bob Barr for president. Vote Libertarian.
For Life and Liberty,
David Macko
From: Amarcy D. Berry
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 7:14 PM
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Re: ChoiceYou and I agree on your interpretation of the Constitution, Starchild.
However, the Feds have stretched the "general welfare" clause to
include all kinds of stuff, including public education. But, trust
me, I see your argument, and that of the others, that we need to be
consistent about no Feds, no taxes, no stretching of the Constitution.Marcy
>
> Marcy,
>
> It is my contention, and that of many libertarians, that the
> Constitution is a document granting certain limited powers to the
> federal government, and that the Feds only legally have the powers
> specifically delegated to them in it.
>
> Love & Liberty,
> ((( starchild )))
>
>
> > Starchild,
> >
> > Your question is excellent, and the answer murky. As far as I know
> > the Constitution is silent on education, as apparently
interpreted by
> > No Child Left Behind, for example.
> >
> > Marcy
> >
> > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, if it hadn't been me I expect someone else would have
made the
> > > point. 8) I accept the income tax as at least debatably
> > > Constitutional (there are of course widespread contentions
that the
> > > 16th Amendment was improperly passed). But where is the
> > > Constitutional authorization for a federal role in education?
> > >
> > > Love & Liberty,
> > > ((( starchild )))
> > >
> > >
> > > > Oh, I so predicted that response!! : - ) Yes, I do, since so
> > far no
> > > > one has succeeded in knocking down the XVI Amendment
("Congree
> > shall
> > > > have the power to lay and collect taxes on income...."). Ugh!!
> > > >
> > > > Marcy
> > > >
> > > > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Starchild <sfdreamer@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, okay. Do you Marcy then feel that taxpayer-subsidized
> > JROTC in
> > > > > government-run schools is constitutional?
> > > > >
> > > > > Love & Liberty,
> > > > > ((( starchild )))
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Starchild,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes I do mean *any* issue, because earlier I clearly
> > limited the
> > > > > > issues to those that are constitutional.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Marcy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, Starchild
<sfdreamer@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Marcy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm pretty sure you don't really mean the
opportunity to
> > vote on
> > > > > > > *any* issue. What distinguishes a republic from a
democracy
> > > > is that
> > > > > > > in a republic you *don't* get to vote on everything; for
> > > > > > instance, no
> > > > > > > voting to send members of the unpopular ethnic group to
> > > > > > concentration
> > > > > > > camps.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ideally, in my view, people should not be given the
> > choice to
> > > > vote
> > > > > > > to have others aggressed against, such as by government
> > > > taking more
> > > > > > > of their money to fund a JROTC program. Or
prostitutes in
> > the
> > > > > > > schools, for that matter, much as the thought of it
> > > > personally warms
> > > > > > > my heart.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Love & Liberty,
> > > > > > > ((( starchild )))
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just about everything in any ballot is funded by money
> > > > forcibly
> > > > > > > > obtained, and I do respect those of us who
consistently
> > vote
> > > > > > "No" on
> > > > > > > > all ballot measures that involves any tax money.
> > However, I
> > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > consistent in my belief that the vote and the
> > opportunity to
> > > > > > vote on
> > > > > > > > any issue is essential in a republic, even if the
> > outcome of
> > > > > > the vote
> > > > > > > > is not to my personal liking.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Marcy
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Denny"
> > <mike@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As Libertarians I'd say they are certainly free to
> > vote for
> > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > funded by money obtained voluntarily but not by
money
> > > > forcibly
> > > > > > > > obtained.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > [mailto:lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> > Amarcy
> > > > > > D. Berry
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:52 PM
> > > > > > > > > To: lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [lpsf-activists] Re: Choice to Kill
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We agree then that the vote is what counts. Good.
> > Now, we
> > > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > > agree, or not, that giving folks the opportunity
to vote
> > > > for or
> > > > > > > > > against something is equally essential.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Marcy
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:lpsf-activists%40yahoogroups.com> , Rob
Power
> > > > <chair@>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Easy answer.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You don't pay for those parochial schools, so you
> > don't
> > > > get a
> > > > > > > > vote.
> > > > > > > > > > Your Atheism doesn't matter.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Michael and I do pay for the government
schools' JROTC
> > > > > > > > programs, so we
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > do get a vote. Our objection to the U.S.
Military does
> > > > matter.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There is no right to use other peoples' money for
> > > > something
> > > > > > > > they don't
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > want to use it for.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Amarcy D. Berry wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Michael,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What if I said I am against giving
freely-choosing
> > > > > > parents the
> > > > > > > > > option
> > > > > > > > > > > to send their kids to parochial schools,
because,
> > say, I
> > > > > > am an
> > > > > > > > > > > atheist. I would find the restriction of choice
> > not a
> > > > good
> > > > > > > > thing,
> > > > > > > > > > > especially for a libertarian. My point is
that if we
> > > > > > > > libertarians
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > so much in favor of choice, that would
include even
> > > > choices
> > > > > > > > we do
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > agree with personally.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Marcy
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:lpsf-activists%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > <dredelstein@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Marcy,
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I'm not clear where you see a conflict between
> > my two
> > > > > > sides.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Best, Michael
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> From: "Amarcy D. Berry" <amarcyb@>
> > > > > > > > > > >> To: <lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:lpsf-activists%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:16 PM
> > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: [lpsf-activists] Re: Choice to Kill
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>> Dear Michael,
> > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>> I have admitted that my "brother's keeper"
side
> > often
> > > > > > > > interferes
> > > > > > > > > > >>> with
> > > > > > > > > > >>> my libertarian side. So, I "forgive" you
that your
> > > > anti-
> > > > > > war
> > > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > >>> interfered with your libertarian side when you
> > > > stated that
> > > > > > > > you are
> > > > > > > > > > >>> against freely-choosing parents having the
option
> > > > to send
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > kids
> > > > > > > > > > >>> to the military. (I am focusing here on the
> > issue of
> > > > > > > > choice, for
> > > > > > > > > > >>> now,
> > > > > > > > > > >>> and letting pass the words "sending" or "the
> > military"
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > >>> referring
> > > > > > > > > > >>> to JROTC.)
> > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>> Marcy
> > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>> --- In lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:lpsf-activists%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > <dredelstein@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Jeremy,
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> You wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> I don't know what the "separation of
school and
> > > > > > state" has
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> anything
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> to do with this. <
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Since JROTC is in the teaching business
(teaching
> > > > > > > > discipline and
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> good
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> training) it's functioning like a school.
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> As you do, I also put my trust in the
parents,
> > not
> > > > the
> > > > > > Govt
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> bureaucrats. However, I'm against even
freely-
> > > > choosing
> > > > > > > > parents
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> having
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> the option to send their kids to the
military.
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Best, Michael
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> From: "Jeremy Linden" <jlinden@>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> To: <lpsf-activists@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:lpsf-activists%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Cc: "Anthony Gregory" <anthony.gregory@>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:07 AM
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [lpsf-activists] Choice to Kill
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Dear Marcy,
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> If the purpose of JROTC involves "teaching
> > > > discipline
> > > > > > > > and good
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> training," I vote "No."
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I strongly support the separation of
school and
> > > > state.
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> I don't know what the "separation of
school and
> > > > > > state" has
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> anything
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> to do
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> with this. Even if you believe there
> > shouldn't be
> > > > any
> > > > > > public
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> schools,
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> whether you like it or not, we currently
DO have
> > > > public
> > > > > > > > schools,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> question is whether government bureaucrats,
> > using
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > students
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> pawns in
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> their petty political statements, or the
parents
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > students
> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> themselves should dictate what goes on.
I know