Chair's ruling on floor fee


  You're entitled as chair to make a ruling, but please don't pretend you aren't making a ruling when in reality you are. If you're saying people have to pay the floor fee in order to vote on the legality of a floor fee, *that is making a ruling IN FAVOR of the floor fee.* You can't stop us from having a vote on it at the convention even if you rule against us, so by saying there will be a vote but people have to pay in order to vote you are granting *nothing* to the other side.

  The convention organizers may have already *cost* themselves money by this attempt to get more money via a bylaws violation. I had personally not yet decided whether to buy a package, but unless they stop trying to charge people to be seated as delegates, I for one WILL DEFINITELY NOT be buying a package at this convention. Nor will I be bullied into paying $9 now with the threat of having to pay $39 later. It's the principle, not the amount. If by some machination I am forced to pay the $39 in order to be seated, we'll just cross that bridge when we come to it. Perhaps a creative solution will present itself. Maybe instead of being a delegate I'll just spend my time hanging around the registration area telling prospective attendees why they should NOT buy a package. However I think the delegates will agree that this is a bylaws violation. It's hard to see how a person can take an honest look at the bylaws and conclude otherwise.

For liberty,
      <<< Starchild >>>

A point of order has been raised on the charging of a delegate fee.

As Chair, I have the option of either ruling on this, subject to appeal, or referring the point of order to the judgment of the Convention. I am told that no matter which way I rule on this, the ruling will be appealed, so I intend to refer this point of order to the Convention for its decision.

During the first morning of convention business, delegates in good standing (i.e. those who have paid the delegate fee and are credentialed) will be the ones who get to rule on whether those who haven’t paid may be seated.

I do not know which way the Convention is going to decide.

[attempt to get people to pay the floor fee snipped here]

Please feel free to forward this to any appropriate e-mail lists or interested individuals.

Aaron Starr
Libertarian Party ofCalifornia
(805) 404-8693Mobile
(805) 583-3308 Home

From:Aaron Starr[mailto:starrcpa@…]
Sent:Wednesday,January 05, 200511:08 PM
To: 'allenmontr@…'; 'BairdCo@…'; 'lidia@…'; 'tedbrown1776@…'; 'liberty64@…'; 'jhenson@…m'; 'michael@…'; 'philturner@…'; ''; 'renbook@…'; 'susanmarieweber@…'; ''; 'brucedcohen@…'; 'Mark Hinkle'; 'Gene Trosper'
Subject: FW: Chair's ruling on floor fee

I don’t know whether Mark has forwarded this or not.

Aaron Starr
Libertarian Party ofCalifornia
(805) 404-8693Mobile
(805) 583-3308 Home

From: Aaron Starr [mailto:starrcpa@…]
Sent:Monday, January 03, 200511:38 PM
To: 'Mark S'
Subject: Chair's ruling on floor fee


It’ll be this weekend at the earliest, before I can research this question and come up with a ruling. As you might imagine, it’s a pretty busy time of year for an accountant. My company’s year end is December 31.

Hope you’re doing well and that you’re New Year’s Day was festive.

Please forward this message to whoever might be interested in this topic.


Aaron Starr
Libertarian Party ofCalifornia
(805) 404-8693Mobile
(805) 583-3308 Home

From: Mark S [mailto:liberty64@…]
Sent:Sunday, January 02, 20059:47 PM
To:; M Carling; starrcpa@…
Cc: Gene Trosper; Susan Marie Weber; Renaissance Books; rclpsec@…; Phil Turner; Michael Seebeck; Lidia Seebeck; Larry Baird; jhenson@…; gkltft@…; LPSF Discussion List; lpsc-misc@…;; Northern California Libertarians; California Liberty;
Subject: [cal-libs] Re: [NorCalLibertarians] Re: Illegal LPC convention delegate fee?

I request a ruling from the chair regarding this matter.

Mark Selzer
Southern Vice Chair

From: "Starchild" <sfdreamer@...>
To: "M Carling" <m@...>
Cc: "Gene Trosper" <gtrosper@...>; "Susan Marie Weber"
<>; "Renaissance Books"
<renbook@...>; <>; "Phil Turner"
<philturner@...>; "Michael Seebeck" <michael@...>; "Lidia
Seebeck" <lidia@...>; "Larry Baird" <BairdCo@...>;
<jhenson@...>; <gkltft@...>; <>; "LPSF
Discussion List" <>; <lpsc-misc@...>;
<>; "Northern California Libertarians"
<>; "California Liberty"
<>; <>
Sent:Sunday, January 02, 20055:46 PM
Subject: [NorCalLibertarians] Re: Illegal LPC convention delegate fee?

> For those of you just tuning in, the organizers of the Libertarian
> Party ofCaliforniaconvention are attempting to charge delegates $39
> to participate in convention business if they are not purchasing
> tickets to any meal or speaker events. It is being asserted that this
> fee is a violation of the party bylaws.
> The real "subsidy" issue here, in my opinion, is the cost of the
> hotels. Regardless of how this controversy of paying for the meeting
> room is resolved, LPC members -- whether the membership as a whole or
> just those who wish to attend the party's convention as delegates --
> will be forced to subsidize the desire of those members who wish to
> hold our conventions in luxury facilities and insist on sharing the
> burden of paying for those facilities with those who would be content
> to meet in less expensive venues.
> If the members wishing to meet in luxury hotels -- one hopes they
> constitute a fairly large group, since the conventions are held their
> way every year -- are unwilling to pay for meeting rooms in those
> hotels, and don't want the membership as a whole to subsidize the cost,
> perhaps someone should move to adjourn the business sessions to a
> nearby park so that money doesn't act as a deterrent to those wishing
> to become delegates.
> Yours in liberty,
> <<< Starchild >>>
> P.S. - I agree with Gene Trosper's reading of the bylaws. Bylaw 15,
> Section 3, subsection B states that a person who meets the conditions
> set forth in the bylaws "shall" be a delegate from his or her county.
> Since those conditions do NOT include paying a delegate fee, the
> failure to pay such a fee cannot be used as grounds to refuse to seat a
> delegate. I realize that you are not the chair, M, but I would like to
> hear your parliamentarian opinion for the record.
> OnSunday, January 2, 2005, at09:47 AM, M Carling wrote:
>> The bylaws are silent on whether the cost of the meeting room must be
>> paid by those who voluntarily choose to participate or must be
>> subsidized
>> by those who don't.
>> It seems you're looking for a Ruling from the Chair on what the bylaws
>> mean. I'm not the Chair, so I can't give you that.
>> OnSun, 2 Jan 2005, Gene Trosper wrote:
>>> I decided to look for LPC Bylaws and Convention Rules that require a
>>> fee to be paid by delegates for attending the business session.
>>> This is what I have found.
>>> My personal opinion is at the bottom of this message.
>>> ***************************
>>> Bylaw 3: MEMBERSHIP
>>> Section 1.
>>> Definitions:
>>> A. Registered Libertarian: A person registered as Libertarian per the
>>>CaliforniaElections Code.
>>> B. Central committee member: A person eligible to vote on Party
>>> business consistent with these Bylaws and Convention Rules.
>>> Section 2.
>>> All Party candidates for public office, officers, county and regional
>>> chairs, Libertarian National Committee representatives and judicial
>>> committee members shall be registered in the Libertarian Party in
>>>Californiaif eligible.
>>> Section 3.
>>> Individuals may become members of a county central committee either
>>> by:
>>> A. Election to the committee by Libertarian voters in a primary
>>> election pursuant to the relevant parts of the election code,
>>> provided they have signed the statement described in item C below,
>>> B. Becoming a holder of public office that is subject to election
>>> other than county central committee, provided they have signed the
>>> statement described in item C below, or
>>> C. Making application, paying such dues as prescribed by the
>>> Executive Committee and signing the following statement: "I hereby
>>> certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force
>>> as a means of achieving political or social goals." The Executive
>>> Committee may authorize participation in a joint membership
>>> arrangement with the national Libertarian Party for the purpose of
>>> satisfying the dues requirement.
>>> No county central committee member shall be a registrant of or hold
>>> office in any political party other than the Libertarian Party.
>>> Section 4.
>>> Membership in any county central committee confers membership in the
>>>LibertarianPartyStateCentral Committee. Any references to central
>>> committee in these Bylaws refers to both the state and county central
>>> committees.
>>> Section 5.
>>> The Party shall provide one copy of a county central committee's
>>> membership list monthly at no charge, or by mutual arrangement, or to
>>> any officer of that county at cost within ten (10) days of a request.
>>> The county central committee's membership list shall be provided to
>>> the national Libertarian Party, a Libertarian candidate, campaign
>>> committee, or initiative committee, or an interested Party member in
>>> conjunction with Party activities to facilitate the Party
>>> organization under the following conditions:
>>> (a) that three Party officers or two county officers give approval to
>>> the request,
>>> (b) that the requesting individual or group agree to pay the amount
>>> for receiving the list in effect at the time of the request as
>>> established by a current Standing Resolution of the Executive
>>> Committee, and
>>> (c) that the requesting individual or group agrees to terms, in
>>> effect at the time of the request as established by a current
>>> Standing Resolution of the Executive Committee, that are solely
>>> intended to assure that the membership list is not to be used for any
>>> other purpose, nor sold or furnished to any other group,
>>> organization, government official or agency.
>>> The Executive Committee may also provide mailing lists to individuals
>>> or groups, but not to any government official or government agency.
>>> Counties may exchange lists.
>>> If maintenance of the State Central Committee membership database is
>>> delegated to someone other than the Secretary, the Secretary as the
>>> official keeper of Party records and the Chair as the Chief Executive
>>> Officer of the Party shall be provided with current membership
>>> information in keeping with their Party duties.
>>> Section 6.
>>> 40% of dues revenues shall be retained by the Party. Each region
>>> shall receive the portion of the 60% attributable to the people in
>>> that region. However, if the Party participates in a joint membership
>>> arrangement which allows for a portion of initial dues to be
>>> retained, that portion shall be retained by the Libertarian Party
>>> state or regional organization which recruited the new member. Dues
>>> shall be distributed to any active region upon request, or whenever
>>> the total amount owed to the region exceeds $50. Contributions shall
>>> be used for their designated purposes or, if not designated, as
>>> decided by the state Executive Committee or county organization which
>>> receives the contribution. Dues shall not be used for financing
>>> individual campaigns.
>>> Section 7.
>>> The Secretary automatically shall terminate county central committee
>>> membership if a member requests in writing such termination or,
>>> except for elected central committee members, fails to remit
>>> prescribed dues by the renewal date.
>>> Section 8.
>>> The Executive Committee shall have the power to suspend a county
>>> central committee member for failure to maintain all the
>>> qualifications of membership established in Section 3, or for cause.
>>> Notification of the suspension is subject to written appeal within
>>> fifteen (15) days of notification. Failure to appeal shall terminate
>>> membership. The Executive Committee may reinstate memberships
>>> terminated under this section.
>>> Section 9.
>>> Upon appeal by a county central committee member, the Judicial
>>> Committee shall hold a hearing concerning the suspension. Following
>>> the hearing, the Judicial Committee shall rule either to terminate or
>>> to continue the membership of a member. (2/3 required to amend)
>>> Section 10.
>>> A Party member may be a member of only one county central committee,
>>> which does not have to be the committee of the county of the member's
>>> residence.
>>> Section 11.
>>> Membership in a county central committee confers voting privileges in
>>> that county.
>>> Section 12.
>>> An associate, non-voting membership in a county central committee
>>> shall be established for those persons ineligible or unwilling to
>>> become members of the county central committee.
>>> Section 13.
>>> Notwithstanding anything to the contrary, a central committee member
>>> shall be suspended indefinitely if, without the permission or pardon
>>> of the Executive Committee, the member:
>>> A. Is registered in any political party other than the Party or one
>>> of its affiliates;
>>> B. Intentionally involves, or threatens to involve, legal authorities
>>> in any non-civil dispute against the Party or one of its affiliates;
>>> or
>>> C. Has unpaid debts over 90 days old outstanding to the Party.
>>> Members suspended under this section will be reinstated when the
>>> offending condition(s) has (have) been resolved.
>>> *************************
>>> Bylaw 15: CONVENTION
>>> Section 1.
>>> The Party shall hold an annual convention of delegates of the State
>>> Central Committee to conduct such business as may properly come
>>> before it, at a time and place set according to the Bylaws and in
>>> conformance with the Bylaws and Convention Rules. (2/3 required to
>>> amend)
>>> Section 2.
>>> It shall be the responsibility of the Executive Committee to set the
>>> time, place, and schedule of events for the convention of delegates
>>> to the annual meeting of the State Central Committee. At least 120
>>> days' notice must be provided to the membership concerning these
>>> arrangements.
>>> Section 3.
>>> Every county shall be entitled to send delegates to the convention
>>> according to the following criteria:
>>> A. Each county central committee shall have one delegate for each
>>> 0.33% or fraction thereof of the total number of all members of all
>>> county central committees. These delegates shall be selected by
>>> counties in such a manner as the county organizations may provide.
>>> B. In addition to the foregoing, each holder of an elective public
>>> office who is registered to vote as a Libertarian, each chair of a
>>> county central committee or a person appointed by the chair of that
>>> county central committee who is otherwise qualified as a delegate
>>> under Rule 3, and each member of the Party Executive Committee, at
>>> the time the convention is held, shall be a delegate from his or her
>>> respective county. Central committee membership shall not be
>>> considered to be holding of public office.
>>> C. No person shall be a delegate who does not meet such requirements
>>> as may be stated in the Convention Rules.
>>> ***********************
>>> Rule 3: DELEGATES
>>> Section 1.
>>> Any delegate or alternate to a Party convention must be a current
>>> member of a county central committee as defined in Bylaw 3, Section
>>> 3, at the meeting at which delegates are selected.
>>> Section 2.
>>> Certification of delegates and alternates selected for each county
>>> shall be submitted to the Party Secretary at least two weeks prior to
>>> the opening session of the convention by the person presiding over
>>> the meeting at which the delegates were selected.
>>> Section 3.
>>> Failure by a county to submit certification at least two weeks prior
>>> to the opening session of the convention shall cause no delegates to
>>> be registered from that county.
>>> Section 4.
>>> Delegates to the Party's state convention shall have been central
>>> committee members at least 90 days prior to the convention.
>>> Section 5.
>>> A county may authorize its officers, in whatever number and by
>>> whatever procedure it chooses, to appoint additional alternates at
>>> the convention, provided such alternates are otherwise qualified
>>> under this rule.
>>> In the case that a region is inactive, the appropriate state
>>> Vice-Chair may choose to appoint otherwise qualified members from
>>> that region as delegates or alternates at the convention.
>>> *********************
>>> All delegates in good standing shall be eligible to vote on all
>>> matters. In order to vote on a given matter, a delegate must be
>>> present on the floor at the time that the vote is taken. Each
>>> delegate present shall have one vote. Any delegate from a county,
>>> including delegates sent to the convention as provided in Bylaw 15,
>>> Section 3, Paragraph B, may be replaced by an alternate from that
>>> county with the consent of the county delegation.
>>> *********************
>>> So, what have we learned?
>>> 1. If one meets certain elegibility requirements, they can be a
>>> member of the LPC.
>>> 2. In addition, if an LPC member meets certain eligibility
>>> requirements, they can be a delegate to the state convention.
>>> 3. There is no requirement for delegates to pay an additional fee to
>>> vote on business matters.
>>> 4. As Rule 6 states: "All delegates in good standing shall be
>>> eligible to vote on all matters. In order to vote on a given matter,
>>> a delegate must be present on the floor at the time that the vote is
>>> taken."
>>> 5. A delegate in good standing per the Bylaws and Convention Rules
>>> can vote on all business matters. Thus, by adding what amounts to be
>>> a "poll tax" is disenfranchisement of said delegate(s) who have not
>>> paid this arbitrary fee. Is it legal to have eligible delegates to
>>> stand OFF the floor to vote? Didn't think so.
>>> It is my personal opinion that the $39.00 fee is null and void since
>>> it goes against the spirit and letter of the Bylaws and Convention
>>> Rules...and likely Robert's Rules of Order, newly revised.
>>> --Gene Trosper
> Yahoo! Groups Links


Paying the floor fee or not paying the floor fee may be a moot point,
since the website does not appear to be working tonight (the deadline
for the early bird discount). I tried to pay my registration fees
online, but the site won't accept any credit card I try to use. It keeps
telling me to go back and re-enter the credit card information--over and
over and over and over again.

Perhaps I'll show up at the convention and either refuse to pay the
floor fee or demand the convention organizers honor the early bird
discount, since the website is still fucked up.

Terry Floyd