[C4L-SF] Don't Forget to Wish Ron Paul a Happy Birthday!

Starchild;
  However it's categorized, authoritarianism is a bad deal for everyone. You were saying though that the people of Libya are better off with a Wall-Street imposed tyranny than under Qaddafi. I'm saying that the Wall Street monoplists aren't interested in Libya's welfare; whereas Qaddafi, at least, was.

  Can you really make an argument that the lots of the Iraqi, Afghan, or Yugoslavian peoples have really much improved since their dictatorships fell (only to be replaced by a new dictatorship backed by US/NATO bayonets)?

  Yes, ideally, the people of Libya would disband their state appartatus altogether and take on a minimalist system with a genuinely free market. Instead, like the other three countries, they'll watch their resources monopolized by foreign interests and themselves reduced to wage-slavery.

http://www.rense.com/general94/kir_whatwhy.htm

Mike

What And Why In Libya
By Jim Kirwan
8-28-11

For months now the visceral and bloody slaughter of the nation of Libya has been seesawing its way across the news wires of the world. Lies have been flying like bullets-in-the-night about who is doing what to whom and in the chaos the real story behind this event has become nearly impossible to unravel.
First we need to know WHAT HAPPENED in Libya: Here is some of what Steven Lendman has said:
Never Forgive, Never Forget
Excerpts Stephen Lendman. 8/28/11
"After covering Libya's rape since last winter in dozens of articles, no forgiving or forgetting is possible for one of history's great crimes. Nor is ignoring those responsible, condemning them forthrightly, and explaining why all wars are waged. NATO outdid Orwell on this one, killing truth by calling war the responsibility to protect - by terrorizing, attacking, and slaughtering civilians like psychopathic assassins. As a result, honest historians will redefine barbarism to explain NATO's savagery. It includes ongoing crimes of war and against humanity for the most malevolent reasons.
When is war not war? It's when committing cold-blooded murder is called the right thing. When major media scoundrels cheerlead it, and when most people believe it because they're too indifferent, uncaring or lazy to learn the truth. NATO's rape of Libya is too ugly for proper words to describe. Only honest images can do it, and lots of them. Instead, the Big Lie substitutes for honest journalism, especially on television where real (not fake) visuals can show mangled bodies, mass destruction, and other evidence of NATO crimes. Where civilian deaths can be shown graphically in living color. Where responsibility can be placed where it belongs. Where right and wrong can best be explained. Where repetition can arouse public outrage. Where proper analysis in advance perhaps can prevent all wars. ...
The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) reports continued fighting in Tripoli, inflicting many casualties. Moreover, many injured can't be treated because of ongoing violence, inadequate staff, and enough supplies and capacity at local hospitals. ... Washington-led NATO turned Libya into a hellish inferno - step one before occupying and exploiting its resources and people. Months ago its wealth was stolen. Ahead will be its future if Libyans don't struggle and win their freedom. ...
Only war profiteers benefit, not taxpayers they steal from or victims they attack. At the same time, corrosive militarism, financial wars, and other destructive policies destroyed America's soul. Its future as a free country is next. So focused on bread and circus distractions, most people don't notice. How else can Washington get away with murder! ...
Keep Libya's freedom flame alive no matter how imperial monsters try to destroy it! We're all Libyans now! Their struggle is ours! It's high time we matched their courageous spirit against the world's most pernicious/destructive force. Bowed perhaps, they're not broken! Isn't that enough to raise our consciousness to support them! "(1)
Next we need to know WHY this happened. To do this we must go back to history, for answers. And this is just one more reason why USI has eliminated "HISTORY" from the American classrooms all across this once proud nation. Below is a transcription that I made from the 9 minute and 23 second video that spells out Libya's rise.
"In 1951 Libya was the world's poorest country. Before the ZATO invasion Libyans enjoyed the highest standard of living in Africa and were ahead of Russia, Brazil and Saudi Arabia. Under Gadaffi Libya rose to become the world's freest state where "homes were considered a human right." Newly married couples were given $50,000 to buy their own homes and where electricity was free to all people.
Before Gadaffi, less than one-fifth of Libyans were literate (compared to America's slightly more than half). Now education [was] free and high quality and the literacy rate is 83%. Healthcare was also free and high quality. And if Libyans cannot find the education or healthcare they needed in Libya, then the Libyan government funded them to go abroad to access it.
All 'loans' were interest free by law. If a Libyan bought a care then the government paid 50% of the price. The price of gasoline was $0.14 per
Any Libyan wishing to become a farmer was given free use of land, a home, livestock and seeds.
On July 1st 2011 1.7 million people assembled in Green Square, Tripoli to show defiance against the NATO bombing of Libya. This represented around 95% of the population of Tripoli and about one-third of the entire population of Libya!
The Libyan Central Bank was state owned and unlike ALL banks in the west was not owned by Rothschilds and issued DEBT FREE money. In 1990 Libya was accused of being responsible for the Lockerbie Bombing of PAM-AM 103. It has [since] transpired that the US paid witnesses at the trial $4 million each to testify against the accused Libyan men.
Yes they were paid to lie and have since recanted their 'evidence.' Gadaffi was also working to change payment for Libya's oil away from the US dollar to the Gold African dinar. This move prompted Sarkozy (of France) to call Libya 'a threat to the security of Mankind.'
One of the first acts of the Libyan 'Rebels' was to create a new Central Bank to one that was owned by Rothschilds, just as ours in the West are. The Rothschilds family are estimated to own over half the world's wealth. Rothschild banks create money out of thin air and sell it to the people at interest. This means that we never have enough money to pay-back what is owed. So we and our unborn children are made DEBT-SLAVES to Rothschild banking interests.
Unlike our leaders, Cameron, Obama, Sarkozy, et all, Gadaffi refused to sell his people out. Libya was DEBT-FREE!
Are you beginning to see why Gadaffi gets this response from his people?
And WHO is behind the ZATO bombing of a free and sovereign people? Libyans had much that we do not have in the UK, USA and EU. [And for that matter have never had in those states] They have a leader who has integrity and courage and who works in their best interests and not the Rothschilds best interests.
Libyans shared in the wealth of their country free from the shackles of Usury and the Rothschilds banking interests. Without the tyranny of Rothschild control over the issuance of money, WE COULD ALL LIVE AS WEALTHY PEOPLE. We have been literally robbed of Trillions by Rothschild Bankers and their rent-boy politicians. We have been raped & enslaved, just as Libya will be raped and enslaved if we don't stop this crime against humanity.
It has been estimated that 30,000 Libyans have been killed by NATO & its 'REBELS.' Gadaffi believes in direct democracy, as it is laid out in his book, "The Green Book." I have put a link to his 'Green Book' below. Please read it. He believes that parliamentary democracies are inherently corrupt & that people can and should represent themselves.
After believing the lies about this man for all my life, this book amazed me! I cannot sit by any longer and watch how individuals, groups and countries are demonized and destroyed by our criminal governments and then watch media protect those responsible for crimes against humanity. I refuse to pay taxes to the criminals responsible for this. Stop paying for their bombs; refuse to pay your taxes. Don't pay for the propaganda, Stop paying the BBC License Fee. We must show solidarity with the Libyan people.
If we sit by and watch these crimes against humanity and do nothing then we are complicit [just as we have been complicit for over 60 years in Palestine]. It will be our turn. Fuck NATO! Fuck the UN! Fuck the New WorldOrder!
It's time to act people! It's time to find our courage and rise-up. Mass Non-Compliance against the New WorldOrder!" (2)
With thanks to Sherrie for the truth about Libya!
kirwanstudios@...
1) Never Forgive, Never Forget
http://www.rense.com/general94/never.htm
2) Truth about Libya
http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2011/08/truth-about-libya-watch-this-video-and.html

Mike:

   That article summed things up pretty well. The only one thing I might correct is the reference to Qaddafi's 'Green Book' which I've read. It seems to promote Syndicalism moreso than direct democracy; what he seems to advocate is a strong, centralized national government and decentralized local ones. IOW, the State is responisble for public large enterprises, while the people are mostly self-determining.

  Anyway, the article reads like a catalogue of NATO crimes everywhere else they've put their bloody hands.

I was having dinner with a friend who is a rock and roll musician who doesn't really care for politics....but he has been quietly observing the political landscape over the years. Last Friday he told me his conclusion. "Government just seems to be one criminal act after another. It goes on for years and years with the same criminals committing different versions of the same crimes in the same sequence over and over again. And the public is so apathetic they can just keep doing it over and over again, generation after generation without objection."

Mike

Mike,

  Thanks for that story about your friend. It's a good reminder that not caring about politics doesn't always mean people are clueless about the nature of government!

  I'm really dubious about many of the claims in the Libya article though, due to statements like "Under Gadaffi Libya rose to become the world's freest state where 'homes were considered a human right.'" Or this whopper: "Gadaffi believes in direct democracy". Who is the author kidding? The guy's been dictator since 1969! There's also too much harping about the Rothschilds. That sort of rhetoric always makes me wonder about a source's grip on reality.

    Not that I think conspiracies never exist, but I tend to think most world events happen due to the nature of large-scale systems and the incentives they create, not as the result of a handful of people working secretly behind the scenes. I think those kinds of theories are popular in part because most people have trouble understanding economics and wrapping their heads around the effects of large-scale systems. Case in point -- whoever the current U.S. president is getting the blame or credit for economic conditions at the time, when his role is usually relatively limited.

  Wikipedia does confirm the article's claim about Libya being considered the world's poorest country in 1951. However, oil was discovered there in 1959, and "by 1965, Libya was the world's sixth-largest exporter of oil." In 1969, the year Gadhafi seized power, Libya's oil output "actually exceeded that of Saudi Arabia." (from the book "The Prize: The Epic Quest For Oil, Money & Power" by Daniel Yergin, p. 529).

  In a country with barely over 3 million people in 1980, and about twice as many today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Libya), creating a modicum of widespread prosperity with that kind of money coming in doesn't seem like such a spectacular achievement. Wikipedia's entry on Libya's economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#Economy) paints at least in part a picture of squandered opportunity (e.g. "In the early 1980s, Libya was one of the wealthiest countries in the world; its GDP per capita was higher than that of developed countries such as Italy, Singapore, South Korea, Spain and New Zealand.")

  Yergin's book, by the way, also notes that shortly after his coup, Gadhafi "closed all the Catholic churches in the country and ordered their crosses removed and their contents auctioned off." (pp. 577-578)

Love & Liberty,
                                   ((( starchild )))

Very interesting Starchild...well presented as usual. We'll see how well Libya does under the UN. And if the Catholic churches are reinstated.

Mike

I don't think the public is so apathetic as they are inconsistent. They don't
like government policies that enrich other people and empoverish themselves, but
they are quite happy with policies that enrich themselves and empoverish others.
EVERY government program has its supporters.
The root cause of big government is big demands on government to do something.
Many of the people who clamor for less government will also clamor for their own
spigot to the public trough.

Les

That may be Les….but what my friend was referring to was the background of corruption like the way HUD takes private land public for housing, then corrupts the housing so it can be declared “blighted” so it can be taken back from the public and turned over to private hands again. This is what went on with the Fillmore district and what is happening now with King Garvey in the Western Addition and the Bayview in the name of “redevelopment”. The public doesn’t know and can’t see the corruption in a pattern in the racket that has been running for generations.

Mike

Mike,

  They are again seizing privately-owned land in the Western Addition as "blighted"? That should be a hot-button issue, given the history. I don't recall reading about that. Do you know the details?

Love & Liberty,
                                 ((( starchild )))

Prop G passed in 2008...

http://www.spur.org/goodgovernment/ballotanalysis/June2008/propg

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=5632

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=5632

Google away...this is just the continuation of more redevelopment agency criminality at the expense of property rights. Crony development allowed thanks to the force of the state.

Mike

Mike;

   Your friend was, unfortunately, right. I don't know if it's apathy though as much as it is a combination of stupidity, narcissicism, and cowardice.

   In all our talk of dictatorships lately; that thought has crossed my mind more than once: if the people keep proving themselves unfit for liberty, a dictatorship is going to be the logical consequence. Now granted, a benevolent one would at least be tolerable; but what the Ameroboobs will likely get is exactly the kind they most deserve. And that will be anything BUT benevolent.

And intellectual, spiritual and moral laziness to boot.

Mike

An interesting FYI that you may find relevant to the discussion, our
city's redevelopment agency
<http://www.sfmayor.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=112> had
a budget last year of just under $300 million.

Mike,

They are again seizing privately-owned land in the Western Addition
as "blighted"? That should be a hot-button issue, given the history. I
don't recall reading about that. Do you know the details?

Love & Liberty,
                                 ((( starchild )))

> That may be Les….but what my friend was referring to was the
> background of corruption like the way HUD takes private land public
> for housing, then corrupts the housing so it can be declared
> "blighted" so it can be taken back from the public and

turned over

> to private hands again. This is what went on with the Fillmore
> district and what is happening now with King Garvey in the Western
> Addition and the Bayview in the name of "redevelopment". The

public

> doesn't know and can't see the corruption in a pattern in

the racket

> that has been running for generations.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com

> ] On Behalf Of leslie mangus
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 8:01 AM
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Categorizing authoritarian regimes,
> dictators' motives, etc.
> I don't think the public is so apathetic as they are inconsistent.
> They don't like government policies that enrich other people and
> empoverish themselves, but they are quite happy with policies that
> enrich themselves and empoverish others. EVERY government program
> has its supporters.
> The root cause of big government is big demands on government to do
> something. Many of the people who clamor for less government will
> also clamor for their own spigot to the public trough.
> Les
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Michael Denny mike@...
> To: "lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com" lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, August 30, 2011 5:17:45 PM
> Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Categorizing authoritarian regimes,
> dictators' motives, etc.
> I was having dinner with a friend who is a rock and roll musician
> who doesn't really care for politics….but he has been

quietly

> observing the political landscape over the years. Last Friday he
> told me his conclusion. "Government just seems to be one

criminal

Google King Garvey and Sharon Jones....you won't believe it.

Mike