Beliefs are held by individuals, not nations

"one nation under God, inadvisable" should read "one nation under God, individual." But then we are not a nation under God having athesis and agnostics in the mix, with liberty and justice for ALL.
The builders of this nation did a great job of compromising and inserting language difficult to challenge.

I might be able to get behind "One nation under God, inadvisable."

On Behalf Of eric dupree

Good one Michael....:>)

Mike

"one nation under God, inadvisable" gets my nomination for
malapropism of the year.

--- In lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "eric dupree"
<dupreeconsults@...> wrote:

"one nation under God, inadvisable" should read "one nation under

God, individual." But then we are not a nation under God having
athesis and agnostics in the mix, with liberty and justice for ALL.

The builders of this nation did a great job of compromising and

inserting language difficult to challenge.

> From: "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@...>
> To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Re: Beliefs are held by individuals,

not nations

> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:23:40 -0700
>
>
> Mike:
>
> Yes. And saying we are a nation "under God" and leaving it at

that is not

> mixing politics and religion, IMO.
>
> >
> > It is true the Founders were Deists but they had also seen

the many

> > problems relating to the mixing national politics with religionÂ…

and while

> > the founders were Deists, they were not necessarily Catholic or

even

> > Christian. But they rightfully appreciated there were many

higher influences

> > that superseded the importance of politics and national

government that

> > should be encouraged by keeping government firmly out of the

way.

> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

> > *On Behalf Of *Starchild
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:57 PM
> > *To:* lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* [lpsf-discuss] Re: Beliefs are held by individuals,

not nations

> >
> >
> >
> > I've always found that phrase "Nature's God" interesting. It

seems to

> > suggest that humanity is separate from nature and its god, or

that there are

> > other gods, perhaps that Civilization might have its own god(s).
> >
> >
> >
> > But regarding the phrase "Judeo-Christian nation," nations are
> > abstractions that cannot have religious beliefs. To speak of a

nation, a

> > collective, as having religion is to elevate national

collectivism and

> > undermine individual sovereignty and liberty.
> >
> >
> >
> > Love & liberty,
> >
> > <<< starchild >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron:
> >
> >
> >
> > Let's not forget that the language used by the founding fathers

is

> >
> > filled with references to God, the Creator, "Nature's God", etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > The K of C weren't lobbying for anything that didn't have a long
> >
> > history in this Judeo-Christian nation.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In *lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com*, Ron Getty <tradergroupe@>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear Terry;
> >
> > >
> >
> > > A historical correction for a couple of the points you made

on the

> >
> > Pledge. You stated:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Most Libertarians know that the Pledge of Allegiance was only
> >
> > adopted in the 1950s to distinguish the U.S. from the "godless
> >
> > communists"
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The Pledge was used much earlier and in the 1930's had

students

> >
> > holding out there upraised arms at an angle with palms up which

so

> >
> > closely resembled the Nazi salute that it was changed to hand

over

> >
> > heart. The "under god" part was added by Congress in 1954 after
> >
> > Knights of Columbus campaigned for the addition.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Ron Getty
> >
> > > SF Libertarian
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The Pledge of Allegiance
> >
> > > A Short History
> >
> > > by Dr. John W. Baer
> >
> > > Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the
> >
> > original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist.

In his

> >
> > Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward
> >
> > Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels,

Looking

> >
> > Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
> >
> > > Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward

Bellamy in

> >
> > his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class
> >
> > could create a planned economy with political, social and

economic

> >
> > equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy
> >
> > similar to our present military industrial complex.
> >
> > > The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The

Youth's

> >
> > Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest

of its

> >
> > day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in

1891 as

> >
> > his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his

baptist

> >
> > church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member

of his

> >
> > congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later

founded

> >
> > the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in
> >
> > downtown Boston.
> >
> > > In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of

state

> >
> > superintendents of education in the National Education

Association.

> >
> > As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools'
> >
> > quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He

structured

> >
> > this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a

flag

> >
> > salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
> >
> > > His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to

my

> >
> > Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation,
> >
> > indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered

placing

> >
> > the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state
> >
> > superintendents of education on his committee were against

equality

> >
> > for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October,

1892. ]

> >
> > > Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living

founder of

> >
> > the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed

these

> >
> > ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three
> >
> > great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality,
> >
> > liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the

often

> >
> > conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'
> >
> > > In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under
> >
> > the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the
> >
> > American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,'

to 'the

> >
> > Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this

change,

> >
> > but his protest was ignored.
> >
> > > In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus,
> >
> > added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now

both

> >
> > a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
> >
> > > Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this
> >
> > second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in

1891

> >
> > because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida,

he

> >
> > stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry

he

> >
> > found there.
> >
> > > What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts

that

> >
> > went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words

of his

> >
> > Pledge:
> >
> > > It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our
> >
> > national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards;

with

> >
> > the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil

War;

> >
> > with the aspiration of the people...
> >
> > > The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic

for

> >
> > which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic
> >
> > mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One
> >
> > Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One
> >
> > Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as

Webster

> >
> > and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its

future?

> >
> > > Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the

French

> >
> > Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his
> >
> > friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too
> >
> > fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But

we as a

> >
> > nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice

for

> >
> > all...
> >
> > > If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be
> >
> > modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.
> >
> > > Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised
> >
> > Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of
> >
> > America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation

under

> >
> > God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and

unborn.'

> >
> > > A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's
> >
> > original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the

Republic

> >
> > for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality,

liberty

> >
> > and justice for all.'
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > > From: eric dupree <dupreeconsults@>
> >
> > > To: *lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com** *
> >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:00:06 AM
> >
> > > Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Cheers on the Gadsden flags!
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > > From: "Terry Floyd"
> >
> > > To: *lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com** *
> >
> > > Subject: RE: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:20:28 -0700
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > As one of the convention contractors (with Mike Denny), I

suppose I

> >
> > can answer these questions.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 1. No
> >
> > > 2. No
> >
> > > 3. No
> >
> > >
> >
> > > While we sometimes see Old Glory and the California State

Flag on

> >
> > display at the hotels that sponsor our conventions, they are not
> >
> > officially required to be displayed and I've never seen any

group

> >
> > (ROTC or otherwise) "present" the flags in an official capacity.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I have never observed the Pledge of Allegiance recited at any

LP

> >
> > convention I've ever attended. Most Libertarians know that the
> >
> > Pledge of Allegiance was only adopted in the 1950s to

distinguish the

> >
> > U.S. from the "godless communists" and was originally used as a
> >
> > marketing tool to sell flags to public schools as a publicity
> >
> > campaign by the Christian Socialist publishers of the Youth's
> >
> > Companion Magazine. See *http://history.* vineyard. net/pledge.

htm

> >
> > for the whole shocking story, if you haven't already read about

it.

> >
> > >
> >
> > > At the first LPC convention I attended in 1993, a debate was

held

> >
> > on the issue of keeping or abolishing the Libertarian
> >
> > Party's "Pledge" or "Non-Initiation of Force agreement" as the

matter

> >
> > was expected to be voted on at the national convention the

following

> >
> > summer. The movement to aboloish the pledge failed to obtain the
> >
> > necessary 2/3 majority, so we still have the Pledge in our

rules. At

> >
> > that same convention, our former LPC Chair John Vernon read the
> >
> > Libertarian Party's Statement of Principles to open the official
> >
> > business meeting, for which he received a standing ovation.

John's

> >
> > booming voice and eloquent diction of the basic principles of

our

> >
> > Party made me extremely proud to be among those delegates. I

miss

> >
> > him very, very much, and I will always treasure that memory.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > As we respect the separation of church and state, I have

never,

> >
> > ever seen or heard anyone pray as a part of our "official"

business,

> >
> > and no prayer has ever been included in the official business

of any

> >
> > LP convention I've ever attended. I'm sure many people pray for
> >
> > us "unofficially" all the time.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > As for next month's LPC Convention in San Ramon, we do have a

red,

> >
> > white and blue motif in our official logo, but we do not plan

to fly

> >
> > the flag in any official capacity. The San Ramon Valley

Conference

> >
> > Center does have flagpoles, and may routinely fly the Stars and
> >
> > Stripes as well as the California flag, but that is their

decision,

> >
> > not ours. We could also fly a Libertarian flag if we wish. I may
> >
> > see if we can obtain a Gadsden Flag ("Don't Tread on Me") as a
> >
> > publicity stunt to fly alongside the traditional flags, if it

would

> >
> > get us more media attention!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Terry Floyd
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > From: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogro

> >
> > ups.com] On Behalf Of eric dupree
> >
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 6:32 PM
> >
> > > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I'd like to know also.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Here's a LP Pledge:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I pledge allegiance to freedom in the United States of

America.

> >
> > > In the people's republic, for which we stand, one nation under
> >
> > human! SMILE
> >
> >
> > > > From: "Derek Jensen" <derekj72@gmail. com>
> >
> > > > To: lpsf-discuss@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > > > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] Question about LP convention
> >
> > > > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:21:21 -0000
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > I have never been to an LP state or national convention.

From

> >
> > those of
> >
> > > > you that have, I'm interested in knowing which of the

following

> >
> > you
> >
> > > > have ever seen done there:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > 1. Presentation of colors, (the US flag), such as by some

local