47) A modest proposal for anti-immigration libertarians

Classically Liberal
by CLS

"As I see it the arguments that conservatives and anti-immigrant types
make concerning social entitlements and immigrants applies far more
accurately to giving birth than to immigration. Using their logic, that
would make the case for state restrictions on reproduction far more
compelling than their arguments for immigration restrictions. Obviously
I don't think the state should be restricting the reproductive
intentions of individuals. Nor do I believe it should be subsidizing
them, which it does to the tune of trillions of dollars per year. I
don't think that the existence of entitlement programs justify the
extension of state control in other areas -- as do the anti-immigrant
'libertarians' I refer to. And I take this position even though the
entitlements spent on children far exceeds that spent on immigrants."
(10/01/07)

http://tinyurl.com/27ty5l

Brilliant!

Mike

It's a clever way of looking at it. The answer as I see it is to
eliminate any and all subsidies from the government for any class,
NOT to fling open the doors to the almost 6 billion people who are
not US Citizens.

Brilliant!

Mike

________________________________

From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-

discuss@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Acree, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:25 AM
To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [lpsf-discuss] 47) A modest proposal for anti-immigration
libertarians

Classically Liberal
by CLS

"As I see it the arguments that conservatives and anti-immigrant

types

make concerning social entitlements and immigrants applies far more
accurately to giving birth than to immigration. Using their logic,

that

would make the case for state restrictions on reproduction far more
compelling than their arguments for immigration restrictions.

Obviously

I don't think the state should be restricting the reproductive
intentions of individuals. Nor do I believe it should be subsidizing
them, which it does to the tune of trillions of dollars per year. I
don't think that the existence of entitlement programs justify the
extension of state control in other areas -- as do the anti-

immigrant

'libertarians' I refer to. And I take this position even though the
entitlements spent on children far exceeds that spent on

immigrants."

No argument from any of us, of course, on eliminating all the subsidies.
On the other hand, there is some question about exactly whose doors it
is that are being flung open.

Re:
http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/10/modest-proposal-for-anti-immigratio
n.html

Yawn. This article blatantly ignores the difference in sponsorship between
immigrants and children of legal residents -- except to laughably pretend
that "trillions of dollars in private [i.e. parental] spending" on children
is an imposed cost instead of a voluntary choice. Ignoring the misnomer
"anti-immigration", I already addressed this comparison of immigration to
births when I wrote
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marketliberal/message/1397> earlier this
year: "I'm prepared to allow immigration by anyone who will have as little
detrimental effect on labor markets, public goods, natural monopolies, and
natural resources as the average child of legal residents." Merely by
repealing some laws, Congress could with a stroke of the pen arrange that
20+ million people would migrate to America next year. There is no set of
laws Congress could repeal that would result in 20 million births by legal
U.S. residents next year. Thus the article's comparison is between an apple
and a crate of oranges.

Nothing in the article addresses the argument I lay out at
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/knowinghumans?p=465. It offers this
counter-challenge to open-borders libertarians: assert unconditionally that
conditions and policies on opposite sides of a border could never vary so
widely as to make unrestricted immigration infeasible. I'm content to agree
to disagree with anyone who would make such an untenable assertion, and so
far I've only seen Tom Knapp step up and take that plunge. Any other
takers?

Nothing in the article addresses the argument I lay out at
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/knowinghumans?p=465
<http://blog.360.yahoo.com/knowinghumans?p=465> . It offers this
counter-challenge to open-borders libertarians: assert unconditionally
that conditions and policies on opposite sides of a border could never
vary so widely as to make unrestricted immigration infeasible. I'm
content to agree to disagree with anyone who would make such an
untenable assertion, and so far I've only seen Tom Knapp step up and
take that plunge. Any other takers?

I suspect you're implicitly defining infeasible in such a way as to
guarantee yourself a win, so it's not an interesting challenge. I say
moving is a victimless crime, and feasibility is not a concept that's
relevant to that claim.

Derek,

  Are you implying that at some point, hypothetically, you'd favor government controls on how many children people could have, if the number of potential children grew too large (say as large as 6 billion)?

  One of the greatest strengths of libertarian ideas, imho, is that they are universal. High taxes, lack of due process, drug prohibition, anti-sodomy laws, government building codes, wage control laws, restrictions on freedom of religion and association, abridgments of the right to assembly -- everything I can think of that libertarians consistently object to, we do not say merely is bad for the United States, but is bad in general, no matter where on earth a government that imposes it may be located.

  Is there any universal principle or consistent approach underlying your views on immigration and reproduction, such that these views would be similarly universal, and apply just as much to other countries as to the United States?

Love & Liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

Starchild:

No, I would of course not favor any government controls on having
children.

To your question concerning a consistent approach:

I believe it is no accident that we in the United States enjoy the
freedoms we do. I believe this is largely due to generations of
natural law tradition borne largely from the English common law. To
this more than anything else I attribute the material wealth and
abundance of personal freedom the people living in the geographical
area commonly referred to as the United States.

I believe this abundance of wealth and freedom is in no small part
due to our ability to exclude others who come from societies that may
not share these same traditions. That is why I favor immigration,
but not to the extent that these traditions of political freedom and
free markets in the United States become swamped by others who may
not have such rich cultural traditions. It takes time to assimilate
people from other cultures, many of which do not have the same rugged
individualist, self-reliant perspective, but instead often look to
strongmen or centralized powers for solutions.

Desiring these personal freedoms and material wealth is not the same
as having a deep cultural tradition of being willing to sacrifice to
preserve them.

-Derek

Derek,

  Are you implying that at some point, hypothetically, you'd

favor

government controls on how many children people could have, if the
number of potential children grew too large (say as large as 6

billion)?

  One of the greatest strengths of libertarian ideas, imho, is

that

they are universal. High taxes, lack of due process, drug
prohibition, anti-sodomy laws, government building codes, wage
control laws, restrictions on freedom of religion and association,
abridgments of the right to assembly -- everything I can think of
that libertarians consistently object to, we do not say merely is

bad

for the United States, but is bad in general, no matter where on
earth a government that imposes it may be located.

  Is there any universal principle or consistent approach

underlying

your views on immigration and reproduction, such that these views
would be similarly universal, and apply just as much to other
countries as to the United States?

Love & Liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

> It's a clever way of looking at it. The answer as I see it is to
> eliminate any and all subsidies from the government for any class,
> NOT to fling open the doors to the almost 6 billion people who are
> not US Citizens.
>
> >
> > Brilliant!
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lpsf-
> discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Acree, Michael
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:25 AM
> > To: lpsf-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [lpsf-discuss] 47) A modest proposal for anti-

immigration

> > libertarians
> >
> >
> >
> > Classically Liberal
> > by CLS
> >
> > "As I see it the arguments that conservatives and anti-immigrant
> types
> > make concerning social entitlements and immigrants applies far

more

> > accurately to giving birth than to immigration. Using their

logic,

> that
> > would make the case for state restrictions on reproduction far

more

> > compelling than their arguments for immigration restrictions.
> Obviously
> > I don't think the state should be restricting the reproductive
> > intentions of individuals. Nor do I believe it should be

subsidizing

> > them, which it does to the tune of trillions of dollars per

year. I

> > don't think that the existence of entitlement programs justify

the

> > extension of state control in other areas -- as do the anti-
> immigrant
> > 'libertarians' I refer to. And I take this position even though

the

Brian,

  You ask people with libertarian views on national borders to assert unconditionally that conditions and policies on opposite sides of a border could never vary so widely as to make unrestricted immigration infeasible.

   If unrestricted immigration were truly "infeasible," then it would by definition be limited by whatever is making it infeasible, so no further controls would be needed in order to prevent it from occurring. But I think I understand the question you're getting at, and believe it can be asked by replacing the word "infeasible" with "so undesirable as to justify government laws restricting the number of people allowed to cross a border."

  I'm with Tom Knapp on this -- I don't think variance between conditions and policies on opposite sides of a border between human countries would ever make migration* undesirable enough to justify quotas. To the contrary, the greater a cross-border disparity, the greater the need for allowing additional freedom of movement so that the disequilibrium can be corrected. Of course I realize many people won't see it that way; where disparities exist, we always seems to find prejudice. Prejudice against an entire group of people on the basis of a superficial characteristic like nationality or skin color is an un-libertarian sentiment, and limiting the degree to which such sentiments are felt is an additional reason for seeking to reduce disparities.

    I would also point out that the only way conditions on opposite sides of a border logically *could* vary so widely is as a result of movement having been *previously* restricted! My approach would be to liberalize all border controls in the world, so that the natural equilibrium that will result from people being able to "vote with their feet" will prevent disparities from ever growing to the point where a person with generally libertarian views might be tempted to say that they are too great to allow unrestricted numbers of people to migrate.

Love & Liberty,
        <<< starchild >>>

*We should properly be talking of "migration," not "immigration." The former is a neutral term, whereas the latter assumes the perspective of people watching other people arriving. From the perspective of people in the countries from which migrants are departing, they are *emigrants* not *immigrants*!

Starchild wrote:

SC) If unrestricted immigration were truly "infeasible," then it would by
definition be limited by whatever is making it infeasible, so no further
controls would be needed in order to prevent it from occurring. (SC

You're assuming I meant "infeasible" from the perspective of the migrant. I
wasn't.

SC) But I think I understand the question you're getting at, and believe it
can be asked by replacing the word "infeasible" with "so undesirable as to
justify government laws restricting the number of people allowed to cross a
border." (SC

That's close, except my earlier post explained what I meant by infeasible
better than this, and in particular my objection would only justify
restrictions on the sort of migrations that tend to have the detrimental
impacts that I've discussed.

SC) Of course I realize many people won't see it that way; where disparities
exist, we always seems to find prejudice. (SC

"Prejudice" is literally unthinking pre-judgment. Ironically, it's
prejudice for you to pre-judge that I cannot oppose unrestricted immigration
for any other reason than some kind of bigotry. I'm really getting bored of
the paranoid and intellectually lazy tendency among libertarians to assume
that anyone who disagrees with them has the worst possible motives. If an
enemy of libertarianism were trying to wish one universal character flaw on
its proponents to ensure our movement would be self-marginalizing, it's hard
to imagine a more debilitating one. But hey, it makes libertarians feel
self-righteously good about themselves, and that's the whole point of
libertarian activism, right?

SC) Prejudice against an entire group of people on the basis of a
superficial characteristic like nationality or skin color is an
un-libertarian sentiment (SC

My postjudice classifies people according to the deep characteristic of
their multidimensional capital (financial, educational, cultural,
linguistic, etc.) and how that influences their likely impact on public
goods, natural monopolies, natural resources, and ultimately labor,
property, and political markets. I've never said that nationality or skin
color is an accurate proxy for this, and I deeply resent any implication
here to the contrary.

SC) the greater a cross-border disparity, the greater the need for allowing
additional freedom of movement so that the disequilibrium can be corrected.
(SC

If I wanted to live in conditions like Calcutta or Mexico City, I'd move
there. My desire to have those conditions not come to me is not
"un-libertarian" or "prejudiced". It has more to do with Tiebout sorting.

SC) I would also point out that the only way conditions on opposite sides of
a border logically *could* vary so widely is as a result of movement having
been *previously* restricted! (SC

Pointing out that something is a disequilibrium is not an argument against
maintaining it.

SC) My approach would be to liberalize all border controls in the world, so
that the natural equilibrium that will result from people being able to
"vote with their feet" will prevent disparities from ever growing to the
point where a person with generally libertarian views might be tempted to
say that they are too great to allow unrestricted numbers of people to
migrate. (SC

This is a prescription for living standards and conditions in Libertopia to
be dragged down to the lowest statist denominator. This would eliminate the
natural experiments that are by far history's strongest arguments for more
freedom.

Brian,

  I was not accusing you of prejudice. I simply said that where disparities exist, one always seems to find prejudice -- meaning in society generally, not that every individual opponent of integration is motivated by prejudice. *You* are ascribing bad motives to *me* by assuming that I meant the remark to apply to you personally.

  "Infeasible" means impracticable -- incapable of being done or carried out. I'm not now sure exactly what you meant by it, I'm just going by what the dictionary says. You say that you did not mean "infeasible" from the perspective of the migrant, so I must conclude you meant from the perspective of the people controlling the territory to which emigration is desired. But to hold migration "infeasible" in this sense as the starting point of your hypothesis would be using as your argument that which you wish to conclude. I assume you are smarter and more honest than that, which is why I substituted the alternate wording. If you feel that wording does not accurately capture your hypothetical, can you explain how it falls short?

  Migration is an economic phenomenon as well as being about peoples' lives. The movement of human labor represents a counterpoint to the movement of capital. When labor (people) cannot move freely compared with capital, it is (they are) at a competitive disadvantage. Libertarians believe that government should not artificially benefit capital over labor, or vice-versa, so pointing out that a disequilibrium exists here is in fact an argument against maintaining such a system.

  More to the point however, I was pointing out that the solution you advocate for the problem of extreme cross-border disparities existing -- government restrictions on migration -- is in fact precisely what would cause that problem to exist in the first place!

  As to "living standards and conditions being dragged down to the lowest statist denominator," a similar argument was used against abolishing distinctions between nobles and commoners, or upper and lower classes -- that it would drag society's culture down to the level of the peasants. And in certain ways one could say that has in fact occurred! But I don't think the solution is to go back to official discrimination as a means of keeping the two classes separate and denying the "lower" class the ability to rise above "their station," and I'm sure you don't either. Rather, society as a whole should strive to preserve and teach the habits, customs and practices that were the best attributes of nobility, making them more widely appreciated and available to everyone.

  Similarly, the key to resolving problems of global inequalities while bringing those worst off up to the level of those best off, and not vice-versa, is not to legally prevent people from migrating, i.e. changing their station in life. Rather, society as a whole should strive to preserve and teach the habits, customs and practices that are the best attributes of wealthy societies -- respect for human rights and the rights of the individual, respect for the environment, civic responsibility, and so on. People of all backgrounds are capable of learning these things.

  You refer to "natural experiments" that you say are history's strongest arguments for more freedom, but I'm guessing that you are thinking primarily of the United States, which was largely the product of uncontrolled migration. If everyone is free to move to where conditions are best, then those areas with the most freedom will continually be getting a boost from the arrival of the best and brightest from less free areas, while those areas that are least free will be commensurately hurt by this "brain drain." Some libertarians have noted this phenomenon at work in instances such as people fleeing the Soviet bloc countries during the Cold War, or white farmers fleeing Zimbabwe in more recent times, without seeming to understand that the United States also is and should be subject to it. It's like a person talking about how maintaining positive conditions in a free market economy depends on people being able and willing to leave their current employers and seek different employment, while expecting to personally be able to stay with the same employer for life without any decline in conditions. Sometimes one is lucky and that happens, but there is no guarantee of it, nor should one seek to have such a guarantee provided by government.

Love & Liberty,
        ((( starchild )))